Surviving the Unthinkable: An Open Discussion on Childhood Sexual Abuse With Jennifer Lewis
CONTENT WARNING: This episode contains dialogue on rape, sexual assault, and abuse. Reader discretion is advised.
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How does one survive a childhood of sexual abuse? The signs of child abuse, and later, of partner abuse, are not always obvious, especially when you are facing it first-hand. Whether experiencing these traumas first-hand or know somebody who is, remember: it is possible to leave sexually and physically abusive situations. It is possible to get out.
If you know a child experiencing these abuses, you must get them safely out. (Click here for information on reporting child abuse in Canada and here for information for folks in the United States).
Today, Jennifer (she/her) sits down with us to talk about how she continues to overcome her traumas, and how her history has shaped the way she raises her daughter.
Here is the transcript of our podcast interview below. You can also download or stream the audio podcast here!
Follow Jennifer:
Instagram: @jenn_christine23
Between Our Thighs: How does one survive a childhood of sexual abuse? The signs of child abuse, and later, of partner abuse, are not always obvious, especially when you are facing it first-hand. Whether experiencing these traumas first-hand or know somebody who is, remember: it is possible to leave sexually and physically abusive situations. It is possible to get out.
Today, Jennifer Lewis sits down with us to talk about how she continues to overcome her traumas, and how her history has shaped the way she raises her daughter.
Hi, Jenn! How are you?
Jennifer: I’m good. How are you today?
BOT: I’m good! Did you want to tell us a little bit about yourself?
Jenn: I’m currently living in Tennessee, I just moved from Florida. I’m a mom of a beautiful six-year-old. I work an amazing job as a medical carrier. I really enjoy being outdoors; I do hiking, climbing waterfalls, I play a lot of softball. Yeah!
BOT: That’s amazing. So, you’re here today to talk about sexual and domestic abuse. Did you want to tell us where your story with this began?
Jenn: Yeah, so I would say my abuse started when I was around seven, eight years old. I’ve been abused by family members, friends of the family, complete strangers, but it really started with family. You know, cousins, uncles, and that sexual abuse lasted years. Then, my first domestic abuse relationship started when I was fourteen years old, actually.
BOT: [Sighs] So, how do you find that that abuse affected your mental health as a young child and into your adulthood?
Jenn: The sexual abuse that I experienced, what it did was — it really defined what I thought ‘love’ was.
BOT: Mhmm.
Jennifer: I thought that, because these were people that were family, that were my ‘protectors,’ that were people who really just ‘cared’ about me...
BOT: Yeah.
Jenn: I thought that sex equalled love, and so, growing up, I always felt disconnected from certain family members because, obviously, I wasn’t being abused by them. Any of the women in my family, I wasn’t as connected to. I was more drawn to the men that were abusing me. As I got older and I became a teenager, that’s what I thought you did when someone liked you or when someone cared about you was— I was always expecting sex.
BOT: Mhmm.
Jenn: When I got into my first domestic relationship, I was fourteen at the time and it was one of my family friends. It was my dad’s best friend; he was twenty-four at the time and he knew a lot of what I had been going through, so he took advantage of that. Because he ‘loved’ me, that’s when sex started with him. That’s when that ‘relationship’ — quote, unquote — started with him. As time went on, it escalated more to, “Because I love you, if I hit you, I love you. If I beat the crap out of you, I talk down to you or verbally and emotionally and physically abuse you, as long as I say, ‘I love you,’ that’s what love is.”
Those moments, they defined what I thought relationships were growing up, in general. Even as I became an adult, getting out of those relationships, you realize that you get into the habit of finding that. I’ve been in multiple relationships where I’ve been abused. I’ve been assaulted by multiple partners and I’ve been assaulted by complete strangers, and friends and family, all of that. It took me a long time to realize I was being abused. It took me a long time to realized that I had gotten raped, that I had been abused.
I couldn’t put a word to it because, to me, it was normal. To me, it was just ‘love.’ If Uncle did it, it was love. If a partner beat me, it was love. If someone that I actually trusted took advantage of me at a party, then they must have liked me, or it was just ‘normal.’
BOT: Yeah. At what point did you realize that it wasn’t just because someone ‘loved’ you? That it was rape?
Jenn: It [sighs]— Once I started really realizing it, I think I was around fourteen, when I got into the relationship with the twenty-four-year-old. There’s two of them, actually [and] it’s both the same situation: dad’s best friends. One was abusive, one not as abusive.
I think it was during that transition of that person, of — I don’t know, [let’s] call him Devil #1 — when I got out of the relationship with Devil #1, there was so much going around school. You know, we started getting sex ed classes a little bit more, we started to hear more awareness of abusive and, me being more mature... I don’t want to say “mature,” but me being put in mature situations, I was a part of a more grown area.
BOT: Yeah.
Jennifer: So, I started hearing about rape a little bit earlier, I started hearing about what abuse was and all the terrible things that happen in the world. When I transitioned from the relationship from Devil #1 to Devil #2, I started to have these little knowledge points dropped in my head, I guess. You know, you start seeing the signs. Then, as I started connecting with some of my foster families and some of my inspirations and role models, when I would tell them, they were like, “Honey, that’s not normal. This is not normal.”
BOT: Yeah.
Jenn: As time went on, you start to realize, “Okay, this person is saying that’s not normal. I see it on TV.” I grew up watching Law & Order: SVU [Special Victims Unit], and I would see that. I could connect to that person on the episode, but it was like, “No, that’s not me. That’s just a TV show, this is actually really normal.”
BOT: Yeah.
Jenn: It took me from fourteen to eighteen to kind of be able to fix my mouth to say: “I’ve been abused.” But never really fully say it about everyone. Then, after I had my daughter, I started to make sure that I got the help for these things I was struggling with and that’s when I started to be able to say: “I’ve been abused. I have a daughter by an abuser. Being beaten up in relationships is not normal. Being touched by your uncles, being raped by your cousins is not normal.”
It took years of people telling me, me actually hearing about it, and me just starting to accept it.
BOT: And how do you think that this abuse set you up for how you viewed romantic relationships?
Jenn: Oh, it was bad. It made me really feel like to be abused was love. I got in so many terrible relationships. I’ve been stabbed, I’ve been shoved out a car, I’ve been cheated on, I’ve been beaten to the point where I’ve had broken ribs and [a] broken nose, and I just— As long as they said they loved me, I really thought it was okay. But that’s because, to me, growing up, that’s what I saw or not really saw, but experienced.
Part of it is what I saw too, that I’ve seen a couple of abusive relationships too, but when you’re surrounded in that area, that’s what you think love could be or what it is.
BOT: Mhmm.
Jennifer: Like, I will watch TV and [movies] and people would have these love stories where the person is super sweet and the person is super kind and they have these happy endings, and I would be pissed! I’m like, “That’s fake love. That person doesn’t love you! Girl, he’s not hitting you! What, he apologized? He didn’t cheat on you? That’s not love. Struggle love is the love.”
BOT: That seemed unreal.
Jenn: Yeah! I’m like, “Struggle love is the love.” You gotta get beat up, you gotta be put through hell and as long as you show that you love them at the end, and you stick by them, that’s how you know that they love you. That’s love.
BOT: You said you have a child, your daughter, and she was born by your abuser. Has having her changed the way that you live your life today? Or even the way that you view love?
Jenn: Oh, yes, most definitely! So, Devil #2 is her father and after I had her and I started to really look at everything that I went through, I realized that that wasn’t love that I went through. What love is, is to protect and be healthy and just all this great stuff. I looked at her and I was like, “I’m never putting you through anything that I went through. I would never... As long as it’s in my power, [I will] protect you from everything that the world has to offer.”
At first, it was hard to know not to yell and to know not to scream and to know verbally abusing her was not okay. I think, with her, I’m learning how to love more gently and I’m learning how to break all these generational curses because I’ve been yelled at growing up. You know, parents, they yell at you, they scream at you, you get put in certain situations.
BOT: Unlearning all of what you knew and what you were taught.
Jenn: Yeah! You want to be the opposite. So, I didn’t grow up with gentle love, I didn’t grow up having a parent who wanted to just communicate and ask me how my day was going and talk about the dark things or just really spend time and so, with her, I try. I drop the ball a lot, but I try to take the time out, figure out what’s going on with her day. If she seems off, “Hey, you seemed a little aggravated and emotional today.”
With her, because of what I’ve been through and because I’ve had this determination with her, I see the signs more.
BOT: Mhmm, yeah.
Jennifer: Any signs. Mental health, frustrations with school. How can I help her? She’s made me want to be better and to love more gentle, so that she can actually turn out to be just kind and amazing.
BOT: There are no perfect people, so there are no perfect parents, but just the fact that you’re making such an effort to raise your daughter how anybody would want to be raised, with that gentle love. Just that attentiveness, I think that alone, makes a huge difference, really.
Jenn: Thank you.
BOT: I think so. No, it’s the truth, it’s the truth.
Jenn: [Chuckles] Yeah, she’s great. As a parent who’s been abused, who has suffered from manic depression, who has suffered over and over again in these situations, you want to give your kid better. You want to just take the complete opposite of everything that you’ve been through and give it to them.
With her, I look at her and I’m like, “I gotta give her better.” She can’t suffer for what I’ve been through. That’s one of the hardest things, is I have to heal first completely, so that she doesn’t have to heal for me. I have to heal from the things that were done to me so she doesn’t have to heal from the things that I do to her. That’s what I tell myself everyday.
BOT: Yeah.
Jenn: You know, you still live through and I still battle with some of my traumas. I still battle with PTSD [post-traumatic stress disorder]. I still battle with depression and there’s some days where I’m like, “Alright, today is a really rough day. What can I do so that she doesn’t have to suffer from it today? What can I do so that she’s not getting yelled at or seeing me break down crying for something that she didn’t do?” Because my kid’s an empath; she sucks in all in, she’s attached to my hip twenty-four-seven.
BOT: Yeah.
Jennifer: Mommy’s her hero and mommy’s everything she needs, and she knows I’m strong and I’ve shown her— One thing I will say about me, that my parents didn’t show, is I show her that I do cry, that it’s okay to have feelings.
BOT: Yep.
Jenn: That it’s okay that I had a rough day. I talk to her about it, like, “Mommy’s just really sad today. I’m a little angry today, but not at you.” You know, we talk so that she knows that if she’s ever feeling an emotion, she can talk to me and she can put it into words, but I try to limit it to an extent. I don’t go into too much detail, like, “Mommy had a nightmare about XYZ.” It’s just to give her something that I was deprived of, which is to give her the OK that you can feel something other than being strong or...
BOT: Mhmm, or just being ‘fine.’
Jenn: Yeah! ‘Okay’ is not— You’re not always going to be okay, twenty-four-seven.
BOT: Yeah.
Jenn: I grew up thinking that no matter what I went to, I [had] to be okay. I always had to be okay.
BOT: Do you find that sense of feeling like you always have to be okay has become a coping mechanism of sorts?
Jennifer: Oh, yeah. If anyone would see that I’m not— I could be breaking down, in the middle of a huge breakdown, screaming, crying, and if someone close to me was to ask me, “What’s going on?” [I’d say], “I’m okay.”
Because if someone saw it, I would shut down. I couldn’t let them in.
BOT: Yeah.
Jenn: I would say that I was okay so much, to the point that no one knew I wasn’t okay until I attempted suicide. There’s been so many times where my family and my friends have found out once I’m in the hospital getting my stomach pumped from [an] almost-overdose or once I’m in a mental health facility because I wen through XYZ. They’d be like, “I thought you were okay!”
Even sitting in there, [I’d say], “No, I’m okay.” Tears running down my face. “I’m okay.” You try to take your life. “I’m okay.” It took me years to finally be able to say., “I’m not okay.” For some things.
Even now, I still kind of do it; it’s still pretty bad, but it’s gotten better [laughs].
BOT: Sometimes, those things are just engrained, but it’s— Especially, I guess, the big things, which are the things that are easier to admit that, “Okay, I’m not okay.”
Jenn: Yeah, you know, I’ll be watching a football game and if my team loses, “I’m not okay!” I can say that.
BOT: [Laughs]
Jenn: I could be eating and, you know—
BOT: Yep.
Jennifer: I drop my food. “I’m not okay! I waited all day for this food and it did not come out how I wanted it to. I am not okay!”
BOT: [Laughs]
Jenn: I get beat up and I have a black eye... “I’m okay. I’m good, you guys. No one needs to worry about me! I’m okay, I really am.” And, again, tears streaming down my face, trying to figure out how I’m going to get through the day, and instead of being able to say, “I’m not okay, I need help. Someone help me,” I’m like “No, you guys don’t need to help me. I’m good, I’ve got it. I’m okay.”
BOT: If you could give yourself a piece of advice, in terms of getting help or knowing when, at what point, to start seeking help and not just saying “I’m okay,” what would it be?
Jenn: Hmm... that’s a good one. I guess, it’s just, when you know your body and you know yourself.
BOT: Mhmm.
Jenn: I’ve learned a lot of trigger warnings now; I’ve learned that, okay, at this point right here, it’s not that bad. You can get through this one by yourself. It’s just when you start feeling yourself go down this dark path, when you start feeling yourself spiral a little bit more, you start feeling that itchy feeling — that “I want to disappear” feeling — I’m learning now to reach out and say, “Hey, I’m having a really rough day.”
I still, sometimes, can’t put into words exactly what I’m feeling, but some people close to me now know that if I just say, “Hey, I’m having a rough day,” that right there is me taking that first step because I’m going down a bad path.
BOT: Mhmm.
Jennifer: The advice that I would give is just to know yourself and be gentle with yourself. It’s okay to let people in that you trust. The first part of healing, really, is starting with admitting when you’re not okay.
BOT: On a similar note, if you could give a single piece of advice to someone experiencing abuse — like, if they were experiencing abuse right now and you’re kind of in the heat of it in that moment — what would you tell them?
Jenn: Besides “get out of it?” [Laughs]
BOT: Yeah.
Jenn: Because, you know, that’s the one you hear, is, “Get out of it, girl! You shouldn’t be going through that” or things like that.
BOT: And it’s not as easy as just up and leaving.
Jenn: Yeah! There’s a lot of emotions that go into it, a lot of— There are so many variables to it. I would say, if someone came up to me right now and was like, “Hey, I’m in this situation and I want to leave, but I don’t know where to start. I want to get help, I want it to get better,” I would say, “Use your resources.”
I would definitely say, depending on the situation, of course— okay, for example, if you notice that it’s just beginning and it’s starting with emotional abuse and then you’re actually starting to feel scared that you’re being controlled, and there’s really no serious ties besides your emotional connection?
BOT: Yeah.
Jennifer: I [would] definitely say to get out of it. As hard as it is, it doesn’t always get better. It probably [doesn’t] get better ninety-nine-point-nine percent of the time. Do not try to see if you’re the point-one percent. You gotta put you first, you have to love you first and just get out.
Now, if it’s someone that’s actually being truly abusive, truly scary, you’re going to lose everything from this person and [you] don’t know where to go: your life is not worth it. Don’t stay. If you have to go to a homeless shelter, as much as it sucks, you go to the homeless shelter. You go to a women’s shelter, you reach out to family.
BOT: Yeah.
Jenn: It takes someone knowing, but you’ve got to choose you first. I didn’t choose me first for a long time and I’ve dealt with— The last abusive relationship, like truly abusive one I was in, lasted about three years. People kept telling me over and over again, “You’ve got to get out. You have to get out, you’ve been through this before and know this does not end well.” I was like, “She needs me. She’s an alcoholic who needs love and she’s misunderstood, and you guys don’t see how when she’s sober, how awesome she is and how much she really does care about me.” I would make excuse after excuse.
BOT: Yeah.
Jenn: Even when I got hit and stuff, it was just never choosing me first. Never being like, “Okay, Jenn, it’s never going to stop. It’s only going to get worse.” I had my daughter at the time, and I had to pick because she was around that. I had to pick what to do, so I would try to keep her out of it, but it was like, I wanted a family. I wanted something more, so it was like, “I’ve gotta stay because this person can be amazing. She loves my daughter, she loves me, she’s just messed up.
It was so many excuses, until I got stabbed. She stabbed me twice and I’m [lying] in this hospital bed. I mean, she’s sitting next to the bed and she’s like, “You’re not gonna tell them, right? I love you and I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to. We just got into it, and you were getting on my nerves. You’re not gonna tell them, right?” [Sighs] I was like, “No, I’m not gonna tell them. I’m gonna make some excuse and say I was drunk, and I was playing around with a knife or something.” And that’s what I did.
BOT: Wow, yeah.
Jenn: But in my head, I was like, “I almost died! I can’t do this.” As hard as it is, once you make that decision — and it’s hard to make that decision — it’s even harder to follow up with it.
BOT: Yeah.
Jennifer: I started slowing pulling myself away, but I started slowly making the plans of my escape. I was like, “Okay, I need to start putting money aside. I need to reach out to someone and I’ve gotta get out of it.” I started seeing the signs of [how] she would drink and right before she would start drinking, I’d be like, “Hey, I need to go hang out with my family for a little bit.”
BOT: Mhmm.
Jenn: And, you know, every situation is different, of course, but with mine, I had to plan my escape day by day, moment by moment, minute by minute because I would talk myself out of it if I didn’t. It’s scary; it was terrifying because I lived with her. It was terrifying because I loved her, and she knew where I lived, where my grandparents lived. If she could stab me and she could flip out the way she flipped out, you know, it was always a fear.
BOT: Yeah.
Jenn: But what was even scarier was when I realized that I almost never saw my daughter ever again. I’ve gotten shoved out of a car by this person and I walked it off, but it was when I got stabbed [that] I realized, I’m sitting on the table, and I may not make it out. The next time, I may not even end up here.
BOT: Yeah.
Jenn: So, yeah.
BOT: [Sighs] Oh, boy.
Jennifer: [Chuckles] Sorry.
BOT: [Sighs] I’m like... [sighs]. Where was I? You said that you’ve experienced this abuse since you were a child and you were basically raised— In a way, you grew up thinking that this behaviour was okay and it was acceptable. So, what do you think — and it’s not always, when we think about rape, we tend to think it’s a young woman walking down a dark alley at night, and a stranger comes out, but more times than not, it’s actually somebody that we know.
Jenn: Yeah.
BOT: It’s somebody that you have a personal relationship with more times than not. This can happen, sexual abuse happens, unfortunately, more than we would think to children. As a parent or an adult in a child’s life, what do you think are some of the warning signs these adults can be aware of that might hint that they’re being sexually abused?
Jenn: See, that one’s a little bit harder, I would say, because most people say that kids get isolated and withdrawn when they’re being abused, or they start having these really bad bouts of anger and you start to notice that they’re not themselves.
BOT: Yeah.
Jenn: For me, it was [the] opposite. Even [during] everything I was going through, no one knew because I was still very active. I used to still go outside and play with the cousins, I would run up and down the street. Nothing about it had really changed me up until I was a teenager, and by that time, people thought it was just me being a teenager, a moody teenager.
BOT: Mhmm.
Jennifer: Because that’s when the anger and stuff happened. So, I mean, it’s hard, because it just seemed normal. I don’t see, of course, what my parents or anyone else saw, but I know— I’ve done some going over some scenarios in my head. [Asking], “Why didn’t they see the signs?” I realized [that] I still was just the absolute same. I never threw out hints of being like, “I don’t want to go here! And I don’t want to be around this person!”
It was still the same excitement. It was still the same energy. So, that’s hard for me to really give advice on. I think kids feel like they can’t talk to parents because they’re scared.
BOT: Mhmm.
Jenn: I wasn’t being threatened. My uncles and my cousins never said, “Don’t tell your parents,” or anything; it was just more of the way they manipulated it and turned it. It was, you know, “I love you, you’re my niece [or] you’re my favourite cousin! Let’s play family. This is what we do.”
So, I never had that, but I guess, from what I have seen working with other survivors and talking with them and things like that, you look for [kids] being withdrawn. You look out for that anger. You notice that if someone says they don’t want to go to someone’s house, kids usually have a good reason why they don’t want to go to so-and-so’s house.
BOT: Yeah.
Jenn: I would say you look out for those signs. Of course, you look for when they start asking certain questions about their body or if you notice you talk to them about their day and they said they played a game or something with someone, you want to ask more questions.
BOT: Mhmm.
Jenn: I know one person that I’ve worked with and everything and she’s talked about how she didn’t want to go to so-and-so’s house — her uncle’s house — he was abusing her for years. Her mom would [say], “You just want to be with me all the time, don’t you?” Never asking why. So, she would still take her over there and she would pick her up and be like, “Did you have fun at your uncle’s?”
“No, not really.”
Her mom would never really ask why. Her mom would never ask more questions or, if she said, “Yeah, I guess,” her mom never noticed that she would kind of still be like— That there was something off.
BOT: Mhmm.
Jennifer: So, I guess if you’re a parent or an adult that’s around kids, you pay attention to the kid. Even if they seem the slightest bit off, it may not be full-on abuse or anything like that, but something could be going on in their lives and you want to ask the questions. The question should not just be “Are you okay?” You dig a little deeper and you pay attention. Even just doing that little step right there, opens that trust, for one, [to show the child] that “this is someone who cares about me.”
BOT: Yeah.
Jenn: But it also just helps you get a deeper insight into what’s going on.
BOT: In your opinion, what do you think is a good age or the right age to talk to children about abuse, and what depth do you go into? Do you think it’s helpful to teach it from a younger age, or just to open up that discussion from a younger age?
Jenn: Okay, so I’m Pilipino and we have different words for our body parts. We have pepe and puwit, that’s your vagina and your butt. My kid is very bilingual; she grew up hearing those terms, [so] in a way, I had to teach her that it’s not just a nickname for it. You need to be able to know your body.
BOT: Mhmm, yeah.
Jenn: That was a big step, was teaching her [about] her body and teaching her, “Hey, these are your boobs, this is your vagina, and this is your butt. No one should be touching those. Mommy will wash them for you in the shower, but [if] at any point it feels different for you, you let me know.” That was the first step and I’ve been doing that since she was two, three years old.
BOT: That’s good, yeah.
Jennifer: And, so, she’ll come up to me and say, “This is what’s going on here,” but she knows the terms for her body. She’s six now; as time will go on, I’ll check on her and I’ll— Most randomly, I’ll just be like, “Has anyone ever touched your vagina?”
“No, just you when you bathe me.”
“Okay. Anybody ever touch you on your boobies?”
“No, I hide my boobies.” You know, I’ve always taught her to hide [her] boobies, when you wear a bathing suit, no one should see you undress.
BOT: Yeah, yep.
Jenn: No one should ever be in the shower with you. It’s taking those steps and then, as she gets older, of course, I’ll go more into it. I think when she’s eight, nine years old, and she’s starting to really go into school (especially since kids are a little more advanced with their sexual knowledge now)—
BOT: Yeah, it’s true.
Jenn: I’m gonna start teaching her [that] you don’t let someone touch you here and more in-depth. When she starts doing sex ed and things like that. You go at your own pace, that you feel comfortable with, but it’s just more of a knowing [of] the right things to say, I guess.
Like, you never want your kid to say, “Someone touched my cookie,” because they can’t go up to a teacher and say, “Someone touched my cookie!”
BOT: Yeah.
Jenn: The teacher will be like, “Well, there’s more cookies.” [Laughs]
BOT: [Laughs] Yeah!
Jennifer: You never want that to happen! You want you kid to be aware of their body parts and you just do a check-in all the time. When you feel like they’re noticing things, especially now, like I said, kids are a little bit more advanced.
BOT: Mhmm.
Jenn: My kid doesn’t watch YouTube or anything; I had to pull her back because this world is very out there, now. I’ve had to pull her back, but I know when she’s around other kids in physical school, and as she gets older, we’ll start having some deeper conversations about things.
BOT: Yeah, and do you find that the experiences you had as a child make you nervous about your daughter and her going and, say, having sleepovers and stuff?
Jenn: Oh, yeah, definitely [laughs].
BOT: [Chuckles]
Jenn: I am so protective of my child. Some people say I can be a little too overprotective, [but] a lot of people don’t know my story. I think she’s only had, maybe, two sleepovers and I have been very thorough with the parents. It’s taken me time to get to know the parents, get to know the kids, be in the house.
BOT: Yeah.
Jennifer: Kind of see what’s going on. What schedule does dad work? When does dad come home? How far apart are the bedrooms? Of course, it’s engrained in me, because I’ve been in bad situations, and so, I want to make sure she’s good.
BOT: Yeah.
Jenn: I try not to be too crazy about it, where I’m like, “Okay, you’re going to wear a camera on [you] at all times.” Trust comes in. I trust my kid to tell me what’s going on because my kid’s pretty vocal about a lot of things going on in her life, but it has made [me] more nervous.
I don’t usually leave her with family for too long. I’m not saying that my family is bad, but in general, I don’t like her being away from me for too long because we’re still learning personal boundaries. She doesn’t sit on people’s laps; that’s a big thing. I don’t do the lap thing. If she’s sleeping in the bed with an adult, it’s usually me, and that’s only if we have to.
I am very cautious around people. I don’t have random people around her like that. She’s just so excited about people, she’s a kid and we’re learning about personal space.
BOT: Yeah! Of course.
Jenn: She’ll run up to a guy and she’ll hug him, especially if it’s a friend of something, and I’m like, “Okay, that’s fine,” but I’ve also taught her how to hug. You don’t just go straight into them, you go on the side.
BOT: Right, yeah.
Jenn: If she’s being tickled and she says, “Stop,” and they keep going — if it really is something that’s too much for her — she’ll be like, “I said ‘stop’!” Then, I’ll confirm, “Hey, she said. ‘stop.’ You can be tickling her too much. Whatever it is, my kid said, ‘stop.’”
So, we talk about that. As a parent, I am nervous, it’s normal, I think. Again, I never want her to experience what I experienced and I’m also learning trust and boundaries with everyone.
I’ve been abused by women too, which I don’t think that’s spoken about enough, either. Women can be abusers, also! I was sixteen and dating a forty-three-year-old, and she was teaching me everything about sex that I didn’t know. I’ve been abused by female family friends. I’ve been abused by women and people don’t take about it, so whether it’s mom or dad, whether she goes, I am on it. Again, no one speaks about how it can be anybody. It’s not just men.
Men get it the most, yeah, but again, it’s not brought up that women can be abusers, too.
BOT: Mhmm, yeah, and I’ve heard stories where women, grown women, have abused young boys. Women have abused their male partners. Anybody can be an abuser, which is terrifying. It just means you have to be cautious about everyone.
Jennifer: Yeah, and I mean that goes as far as not just sexually, but as domestic, too.
BOT: Mhmm, yeah.
Jenn: A woman can hit a man over and over and over again, and people are just like, “She was playing with him!” But the minute that a man hits her back, then he’s the abuser, but you don’t know. Women can be abusive in every way, shape, or form. Verbally, emotionally, mentally abusive. Everywhere.
BOT: Yeah, it’s true. What do you think people who haven’t experienced abuse first-hand can do for the people that have?
Jenn: Well, I would definitely say be more understanding. If you’ve never been in a situation before, if you’ve never been sexually abused or have never been— Anything that someone is telling you that’s abuse:
One, you don’t victim blame. Even if there’s a part of you that doesn’t believe the story, you don’t turn it around and beat them down to the point where it’s just like, “You’re a liar! I know that person myself, that person would never do that!” Because I’ve experienced that with my ex; they would be like, especially with me coming out more and more about what we’ve been through, “I know that person and she would never do things like that. You’re a liar! It must have been your fault; you’re the reason why.”
So, I would definitely say don’t victim blame, don’t give pity. You give your support, you give grace, you give compassion, and you hear them out. If a person is trying to talk to you just to talk to you and tell you what’s going on, you listen. They didn’t ask you to fix it, they didn’t ask you to solve it, and you give them space and time. If they ask you, “What should I do?” of course you want to help, you help, but don’t shame them. I think that’s a big thing, it’s a big feeling or emotion that we all feel at the end of the day, which is why we don’t want to tell people.
Whatever you say to us isn’t something that we’ve [not] already felt, basically. So, you can’t tell me that it’s my fault because I probably already feel that way. You can’t tell me that if I wouldn’t have done XYZ, that this would not have happened [or] if I had left sooner, then this wouldn’t have had happened. I know that.
BOT: In terms of connecting a victim or survivor with the right resources, do you think that somebody who has heard about this abuse and — say, for example, you open up to someone, “I’m being abused and this is what’s happening” — should that person just jump in and call 911 or some sort of emergency service hotline where they can get that person immediate help, or should they instead connect them with the resources? Because not always is the person that’s experiencing abuse going to feel safe to reach out, and not always can reach out. Maybe their abuser hovers and they’re afraid of having it on their phone.
Jenn: Yeah, I think that’s also really tough to answer because I’ve been in the friend part, too. I’ve been in the [abused] part and I’ve been in the friend part and I’ve wanted to help, I’ve wanted to be there, and I’ve wanted to just take them out of that situation. So, what I’ve learned is that you see exactly how bad it is; of course, if your friend is getting stabbed and probably going to die, you call who you need to call.
BOT: Yes, of course.
Jennifer: You get them out of it.
BOT: Yeah.
Jenn: The reason why it’s such a hard question to answer — because, of course, your first answer is to get them help — if you have to be the one to call, you get them help [or] you have to give them resources, you get them help. You don’t just hear it and go, “Alright, cool. Alright, let’s go get lunch.” You don’t just ignore it.
BOT: Yeah.
Jenn: But there’s so many ways that that can go and, also, it depends on the situation, it depends on the person, it depends on what they’re going through. You could get them help — for example, you were the one to tell me what you’re going through. You’re getting beat up at home, he owns the house, you’re scared, but you want to leave, but you’re so scared. So, I say, “You know what, I’m gonna call the cops. Forget it, screw it, we’re getting him out. We’re getting him done right now. Got it.”
I could possibly have just made it worse for you, right? Because I don’t know the full extent of what’s going on at home, I don’t know his resources, I don’t know if he has a good lawyer, I don’t know if he has a gun.
BOT: Yeah.
Jenn: And, so, what I could have just done was made him angry and unless I can follow through with, “Okay, let’s call the cops, let’s get your stuff and get you out of the house and get you to a safe place,” you could still be at the house and he gets out and I’ve just made it worse. Or, you just wanted to tell me, but you weren’t ready for that next level, and now you don’t trust me anymore.
BOT: Mhmm.
Jennifer: It’s hard because you love someone, you care about someone, you don’t ever want to see someone in that situation. You can ask them — it won’t do much, but you can ask them — “Do you want me to call the cops for you?” And they’ll [likely] say no, out of fear and everything.
It depends on the extent and how it goes, but I truly say you understand what’s going on and you come up with a plan. So, like, “I can call the cops. Once he’s in jail, I can come help you pack up everything you need. I can get a hotel in my name.” Most people can’t, but you do what you can to get them out of this situation if it has to get to that level. Again, if your friend is getting stabbed, you do what you have to do.
BOT: Yeah, if their life is in danger, then that’s a different story.
Jenn: Yeah, but if it’s something that, before it gets to that really dangerous part and you’re right in the middle and they’re trying to get help, come up with a plan. Give them the resources [or you can] call the resources with them there; you do what you have to do to protect them. It’s strategy, I hate to say it.
BOT: Yeah.
Jenn: People think it’s just calling somebody and it’s over and done with. No, there’s sadly some strategy in some situations. There’s strategy that has to go into it.
BOT: And you don’t want to have to break your friend’s trust, either.
Jenn: Yeah.
BOT: Because you want them to still know that they have somebody there.
Jennifer: And that can be exhausting on your end too, because some people take it on. When your friend is still going through it, it hurts you. It’s exhausting. If you feel like you can’t handle it and you can’t do it, you send them where they need to go and you give them support, but you protect yourself, too.
BOT: You don’t know how you’re going to react in a situation until you’re in that situation.
Jenn: Yeah.
BOT: Do you think advocating for sex-positivity would be an important step forward in not necessarily eliminating sexually abusive situation, in general, but in lowering cases of it happening?
Jenn: What do you mean by sex-positivity? Break that down.
BOT: For example, one part could be how you told your daughter [that] instead of calling [your vagina] your ‘cookie,’ calling it your vagina, and teaching children boundaries from a young age, the parts of their body, and educating them. Even that ties into your emotions and being open with your emotions and how you feel.
In many cases, there is a cycle of abuse where a parent has been abused and they abuse their child. Or an uncle or an aunt or a cousin that are abusing, they’ve been abused and they think it’s okay. So, by teaching your child sex-positivity in an age-appropriate way, do you think that that can start the breaking of the cycle of abuse?
Jenn: Yes, I definitely believe that it contributes to it, yeah.
BOT: Yeah.
Jennifer: You know, it gives [my daughter] more of a firm, assertive way of knowing exactly what is going on without saying [to her], “Sex is this, this, and that.” Then, now, she’s at a young age saying, “I want to go experience what sex may be!”
BOT: Yeah, yeah.
Jenn: You know, it is age-appropriate, and I do think that if we spoke about it more, we had taught more boundaries and more trust, and [even] just what the words are for the body parts themselves, I do think that — although it may not eliminate it — it does help contribute to stopping it, in a way. Yes, I do believe that.
BOT: I think, also, maybe from a personal standpoint, in that “I know, now, what abuse is and I’m going to avoid these situations,” but also, “I know what boundaries are and I don’t want to break or push other people’s boundaries, as well.”
Jenn: Yeah! I will say that, besides teaching your kid, like I said, healing yourself really does contribute. I drop the ball; like I said, I do. I was on the road to becoming one of those parents that, because I was verbally abused by my parents and being told by my grandparents— Being cussed out twenty-four-seven for something— Whatever you’re raised around, I was in the process of continuing that for her.
BOT: Yeah.
Jenn: And it really is just recognizing what abuse could be, because, again, I think people just think that it’s just one narrow strip and there’s so many things that go into it. Everyone [suffers] differently. Some things, you want to keep going and that’s fine, but if you don’t want your kid to grow up thinking that it’s okay to get cussed out twenty-four-seven, don’t cuss out your kid twenty-four-seven.
BOT: Yeah.
Jennifer: You know, it’s a learning curve.
BOT: Yeah, and you learn by example.
Jenn: Yeah, we do [sighs, laughs].
BOT: [Laughs] Unfortunately, in some cases. And, as an adult, what does sex-positivity mean to you?
Jenn: Loving myself, for one. Loving my body and realizing healthy sex. That was one. Boundaries, knowing that it’s okay for me to say, “No.” If I’m not comfortable, I’m not comfortable and I say, “No.” It’s just recognizing that there were two different versions of it and being proud of who I am. I used to hate my body, I used to hate that I had things happen to me. I used to hate why, and so I would never want people to really touch me or anything.
Now, it’s being able to say, “I’m hot. I’m beautiful. I want to have sex.” Sex is not a bad thing, there’s just a better way to do it (I guess, would be the best way to explain it).
BOT: Yeah, and how do you think other people can be more sex-positive?
Jenn: Ooh...hmm...
BOT: [Laughs]
Jennifer: One would be learning the terms of it, what it looks like to everybody. Again, you might hear ‘sex-positive’ and go, “I don’t know what that means,” kind of like me, a little bit. I’m like, “I don’t really know what it means,” but for everyone, it stands for something different.
BOT: It’s different, yeah!
Jenn: Yeah, so I like that sex-positivity would be healthy sex. Okay, what is healthy sex? What are boundaries are communication and being able to say, “no”? You get more informed [about] it and then you define it for yourself, but it definitely helps a lot, because then you start to feel good about yourself.
BOT: Yeah.
Jenn: Especially when you’ve been abused [because] sex has such a bad stigma to it. You have some [victims or survivors] who get really promiscuous and some who just don’t— they can’t be touched anymore. I was a little bit of both. Again, you learn and... yeah.
BOT: Do you have any concluding thoughts?
Jenn: I would just say that you learn yourself and you heal yourself, and you realize that it wasn’t your fault. You give yourself grace, especially when you’ve been abused, [and learn] that love, it can be really good. Sex can be good. Trauma doesn’t always stick with you and, honestly, we don’t talk about some things enough. So, it’s just realizing that your story, realizing that what you’ve been through, may not look like the next person’s or may not look like the ones that are flashed around, but it still matters. It’s still something that should be talked about.
It’s still something that, if you know for a fact that in the middle of making out you said, “No” multiple times and then he guilted you or he made you feel bad and you still had sex, but you feel really not great about it — it’s still you knowing that that’s not okay.
BOT: Yeah.
Jennifer: My biggest thing that I’ve learned in life so far is that it’s not just a broad way of abuse. Abuse is not just one broad thing. There [are] so many [things] that go into it. So, definitely know you matter and then definitely know different stories and what they all stand for is that we all feel the same way in some way, shape, or form. We’ve all been through similar things, they just look different.
BOT: Do you have a website or social media you wanted to share?
Jenn: Yes, I have an Instagram. It’s @jenn_christine23; it’s in a bit of a clean-up right now, but that’s definitely where, if anyone has anything they want to ask or talk more about, that’s definitely the best way to reach me.
BOT: I’ll link it in the description of this podcast episode.
Jenn: Okay, sounds good!
BOT: Thank you so much for being so candid and open. Honestly, yeah, it’s a lot to digest. It’s a lot. It’s a heavy topic to talk about, in general.
Jenn: Yes.
BOT: And, especially, to open up and share your experiences. Honestly, it really is such a great thing that you’re doing because there are so many people who are afraid and who are not comfortable, yet, to come out and talk about these things and to get help. I think to hear that you’re not alone is so important. That’s really important.
Jennifer: You know, I’m very thankful for you for giving me the chance to talk. I want to say that no matter how much time has passed for your story, it still matters. I went through abuse over a decade ago this —has been an ongoing thing for ten plus years, and it’s okay that you did not tell us exactly what happened at eight, nine years old, and now you’re ready to tell it. It does not take effect away from your story. It does not give a negative vibe on it. It does not diminish it (that’s the word I’m looking for). It does not.
When you’re ready to tell it, when you’re ready to bring awareness to what you need to bring awareness to, do it. Do not feel bad because you weren’t ‘brave’ enough to speak out at sixteen, seventeen years old about what happened, but you’re doing it now at thirty. Just do it, and that is okay.
BOT: Thank you, Jenn.
Jenn: Thank you.
