Beyond Monogamy: Discussing Untraditional Relationships with Sophie Pagès of LVRSNFRNDS
The definition of “traditional” monogamy may not be exactly what you think it is. In fact, it not only has shifted in meaning throughout time, but it varies from person to person today. A given person’s opinion on it can even shift many times throughout their lifetime. Clearly, it’s time to take a deeper look to gain a better understanding of what it means (and does not mean).
In this episode, Sophie Pagès (she/they) of LVRSNFRNDS dives into the topics of open relationships and ethical non-monogamy, dating, forming more intimate connections with people, and becoming the most authentic version of yourself.
Here is the transcript of our podcast interview below. You can also download or stream the audio podcast here!
Follow Sophie:
Instagram: @lvrsnfrnds
Twitter: @sophspages
Between Our Thighs: An open, non-exclusive relationship is a romantic partnership that is sexually non-monogamous. That is, both partners have agreed that they are allowed to pursue other individuals for dating, sex, and even love (depending on their terms for the relationship). Depending on one’s personal definitions of monogamy, it can also mean dating multiple people at a time to see what you like, as opposed to focusing on just a single person at a time, determining whether they’re right for you, and then moving forward or moving past them on a one-on-one basis.
While navigating an open relationship isn’t for everyone, once you have figured out the motives as to why you may want to explore ethical non-monogamy — including the reasons that apply to yourself and your specific relationship, if you’re in one — then you can begin to explore the various possibilities. Today, we’re chatting with Sophie Pagès of LVRSNFRNDS. They dive into the topics of open relationships and ethical non-monogamy, dating, forming one or more intimate connections with people, and becoming the most authentic version of yourself.
Let’s get this conversation started, why don’t we?
Hi, Sophie, how are you?
Sophie Pagès: I’m good, thank you, and you?
BOT: I’m good, thank you. Did you want to start by telling us a little bit about yourself?
Sophie: Yes, great, thanks! I’m Sophie Mona Pagès; I’m the founder of LVRSNFRNDS. It’s a social network where people better understand identity and relationships, and mix and make friends. I’m currently based in Amsterdam, I’m married, I have a lovely dog that I consider my son, whose name is Igor [laughs].
BOT: [Laughs] That’s so cute.
Sophie: [Laughs] Yes.
BOT: On your website, you say, and I’m quoting, “I am a queer person of colour with an invisible disability, a survivor of many things, white and hetero-passing. The combination of who I am and how I pass provides me with a unique kind of privilege that I strive to leverage every day.” Did you want to go into that a little bit.
Sophie: Yes, growing up, I figured out that’s what made me different. It wasn’t necessarily something that made me of less worth, but rather, that it was things like [the] traits of my identity or my experiences that I could leverage to better help people who maybe don’t have as much privilege as I do because I identify as queer, I have a disability, I’m a person of colour, and still — because I pass as white, able, hetero — this gives me quite a few privileges.
It’s been a long journey, figuring out how this was actually a good thing and how I could use it. So yes, that’s what I came to realize over all the years.
BOT: That’s amazing. What inspired you to launch your social network, LVRSNFRNDS?
Sophie: It is actually related to this, because I had this feeling of not fitting [in] and finding it difficult to find my people. What happened is that when I met Sammy, who’s now my husband, we wanted to (since the beginning), we [agreed] to be in what I would call an “open relation” and exploring together, trying to find our people. I realized that the outlets are there, the channels that we would use, weren’t really what I would have imagined.
It felt really, you know, sex-focused, quite transactional. You feel a lot of objectification. You come across a lot of racism, sexism, I don’t know, fatphobia, transphobia, and so on.
BOT: Yeah.
Sophie: Lots of oppressive behaviours, and I thought, Okay, how can I actually get to create something where I find people like me? So people who are interested in alternative styles of relationships, but still who share my values and who are not in this for the sex, per se.
BOT: Mhmm.
Sophie: So, meanwhile, I had this kind of ‘lightbulb moment’ because one of the things that I love is to host parties with my friends and, because of my identity, because of the life I’ve had so far, my friends are quite a diverse group of people. Still, because all of them are my friends, they have something in common.
So, when I would host a party with my friends, often I get people telling me, “Oh my God, I didn’t know this person! I would never have met them somewhere else and I’m so happy we met here.” I thought, What if I could recreate this experience with people who are interested in learning about alternative relationship styles and so on? And that’s how I started with social events.
In 2018, I was in London at the time, and I launched a series of social mixers that will happen on Friday nights with people that I would select. They had to fill out a form, so [that] we could make sure that they share the values that I wanted this community to have.
I was, at the time, interviewing all of them to make sure that they would be a good fit with what I was building.
BOT: Wow!
Sophie: And that’s how I had this community growing around the social events. Then shit hit the fan with the [pandemic].
BOT: Yes...
Sophie: COVID happened and we met this online pivot. So, we moved everything that we were doing from offline to online. That’s how we started developing this as a social network.
BOT: That’s brilliant.
Sophie: Thanks.
BOT: That’s brilliant. And you moved to Amsterdam during COVID?
Sophie: Yes, I moved to Amsterdam last October. So, after a few months in London experiencing London during COVID.
BOT: Do you find — I mean, I guess it’s hard to tell because of COVID — but do you find that there’s a difference in the culture, from an alternate sexual lifestyle and alternate relationship lifestyle? Do you find that there’s a difference in cultural acceptance from London to Amsterdam?
Sophie: Hmm, yes. Indeed, it’s complicated for me to say, because I work a lot, and with COVID and everything, I haven’t really had or haven’t really taken the time to socialize and get to know people here more, especially because, as the community is mostly in the UK and the US, I’m more focused in these areas. So I couldn’t really tell.
Interestingly, what I can say is that when I meet people here and I start to meet more people as things are opening up again, every time I say what I do, I get people super excited and saying, “Oh, my God! This will work so well here. It’s a great city to develop something like that.” So, I’m actually looking forward to seeing this.
BOT: That’ll be awesome to see how it unfolds in Amsterdam.
Sophie: [Laughs] Yes, definitely.
BOT: Because it’s such a sex-positive city. I love Amsterdam.
Sophie: So you’ve been already?
BOT: I went as a teenager.
Sophie: Ah, okay!
BOT: London, I went to, actually right before COVID, I spent a week in London. Just over a week in London.
Sophie: Ah, wow, okay.
BOT: Amsterdam, I think I was 17 when I went. It was a different experience when you’re 17, but I’d love to go back and see it properly.
Sophie: Yes, I can imagine [laughs].
BOT: [Laughs] On that note, how do you think that folks can strive to be the most authentic versions of themselves? And what does it mean to be the authentic version of yourself?
Sophie: I think it has something to do with being vulnerable.
BOT: Mhmm.
Sophie: Having the comfort to be vulnerable and grow from this. I have a lot of conversations around authenticity at LVRSNFRNDS where people ask, “Am I authentic? Can I be authentic with everyone?” And so on.
To me, it’s really about having this space where you’re safe and you can be vulnerable and see what’s new, and grow from this. Then, also, I think we have to take into account that sometimes, in certain relationships, being authentic is not necessarily saying everything.
BOT: Mhmm.
Sophie: I think it’s also more about how you feel about it. If you feel that things are right. Because you see, in some environments, there is a pressure for people to ‘come out’ and it’s seen as something amazing to come out about your identity or your relationships styles, and so on, but I believe that for certain people — especially people from marginalized identities — there shouldn’t be such pressure for them to come out.
BOT: Yeah.
Sophie: It’s, I think, more about how you feel.
If you’re in this room with your family and you feel [that] you’re yourself, you’re showing a part of yourself and this is okay. You feel good, then you’re being authentic. So, I think that is a part of us that doesn’t have to unfold around us, as diversity.
BOT: I think that’s so great. I agree, yeah.
Sophie: Thanks!
BOT: You mention on your website that you’re a relationship expert. What are some of the most common things that you find people can work on to help them thrive within the romantic relationship?
Sophie: Okay, so I will be super, super cliché here [laughs].
BOT: [Laughs]
Sophie: We’ll use the C-word: communication.
BOT: Yeah.
Sophie: Yeah, I think that’s really the main thing to work on, and that can get you everywhere. Whatever issues you are struggling with in your romantic relationships. It’s all about, again, creating the space where both of you can be vulnerable and find the words to express how you feel. Finding the words, also, to give space for the other or the others to express how they feel. You know, words can be so triggering. To me, it’s all about communication.
BOT: And how do you think that couples can communicate better between each other?
Sophie: Empathy can help. Like, understanding better the experience of the other person, and this is something that, at LVRSNFRNDS, when we have those conversations, we talk about identity relationships. Something that I love here is that you can be a man and be in a room with people talking about going through menopause, for instance.
BOT: Yeah.
Sophie: I think it’s super powerful because it puts you into this experience where you have access to information firsthand, and it’s something you couldn’t necessarily have elsewhere. I think listening to people in your life that have similarities in their identity with your partner or your partners, is already something that can give you a clue to understand better what’s their experience, and [to] put yourself in their shoes.
I think it’s different; something that can help.
BOT: You also help couples explore the world of ethical non-monogamy, as you mentioned. This can be a taboo and off-limits topic to a lot of people, a topic that sometimes couples might be afraid to address, even if it’s something that they’re interested in. How do you think that it can become more common, or at least more commonly spoken about?
Sophie: Yeah, so about that. I want to see first that it’s not only couples, it’s also single people.
BOT: Mhmm.
Sophie: You have a lot of people who actually identify as single and non-monogamous, and you also have like people who — there is this term, solo-poly, which are people who identify as solo but poly. So, it’s like, “I value this relationship with myself and then I have other partners, but I don’t consider myself partnered.”
BOT: Ah, okay.
Sophie: Well, that’s the way to explain it. It’s best to ask someone who is solo-poly to explain it, but it’s around those lines. I think the best way to explore those styles of relationships is to, again, get a support system made of people who are experiencing [it] as well. It’s all about creating the space where you feel you can speak about stigma.
It’s terrible because when you start putting stigma onto something, people start exploring [in secret] and then something happens and they don’t know how to talk about it around them. Then, it’s the sort of [thing where] things are going worse and worse and worse.
I think that the first step is actually— Interestingly, most of the time I see couples, they will think, Okay, what if we open our relationship? Let’s explore non-monogamy, and so on. Unfortunately, [for] a lot of them, they will just rush into a dating app. If you want to meet people as a couple or a single in a non-monogamous way, they will look for someone to date or to have sex with.
BOT: Yeah.
Sophie: And I think you’d rather be looking for someone to be your friend, someone you can have a conversation about it with. Everything you do should be tests and trials, and you should give yourself the right to say, “Well, actually, you know, I said, I want to do that, but I don’t like it so much. I actually changed my mind.” This is super important because sometimes you feel like, “Oh, I said I wanted to try this and then, now, we’re right in the middle of it, and—” No. Say [that] I said I wanted to have a threesome with another guy. Then, you know, you’re in the middle and you realize, “Well, it’s not actually what I want to do.” So, what do you do?
You should feel comfortable enough — even at that time, even when you’re in the room and everybody’s naked and having fun — you should feel like you can say, “Well, actually I changed my mind.”
It’s also about discussing together, “Okay, what happens if I change my mind? Even right in the middle of something happening?” That’s when you build strength, you build confidence, and you [become] way more equipped to explore.
BOT: And it all roots back to that communication thing.
Sophie: Yes, exactly [laughs]!
BOT: [Laughs] Communication all the time.
Sophie: Yes! It’s cliché, but...
BOT: It’s cliché for a reason.
Sophie: Yeah, I guess so, exactly!
BOT: [Laughs] So, in your opinion — and again, this is just completely in your opinion — why do you think that couples should consider non-monogamy, and what are the benefits, do you think, of non-monogamy?
Sophie: In my opinion, I wouldn’t even tell people [they] should consider non-monogamy. I would actually say, “You should see relationships on a spectrum.”
I think it’s all about rather being monogamy, non-monogamy; to me, there is no binary here. It’s all about looking at relationships on a spectrum, from monogamy to non-monogamy, let’s say. Nobody here is doing monogamy, nobody’s doing non-monogamy in their purest form. You know, if you look at monogamy, for instance, nowadays, someone who tells you they’re monogamous — in the US, for instance, when you date and you’re dating multiple people, someone in France will not consider this as being monogamous. It will be like, “Well, this is non-monogamous.”
BOT: Yeah.
Sophie: So that’s just to show you how the words we put on things are actually not that’s precise.
BOT: Yeah.
Sophie: When you look at [the] monogamy that we practice nowadays, someone back in the sixties would say, “This is not monogamy! It’s serial monogamy,” because it’s like, “Okay, I’m with a partner, and then we break up, and then I’m with another partner, and then we ended up with another one,” and so on.
BOT: Yeah.
Sophie: You know, someone could say, “Well, that’s not really monogamy.” Someone could say, “No, to me, monogamy is [when] you have no partner at all, and then you have a partner and then you die and that’s it.”
BOT: Yeah.
Sophie: Who’s living this way nowadays?
Then, on the other side, you have non-monogamy. What is non-monogamy in this pure form, really?
So, what I would tell anyone, really, is [to] give yourself the relationship partnered with people who can first understand that and who are willing — with you — to find, to design the relationship that works with both of you.
BOT: Yeah.
Sophie: And in this relationship, that would work. In this dream relationship of yourself, there can be elements of monogamy, non-monogamy — it’s a spectrum.
BOT: Yeah.
Sophie: It gets complicated when you add to this the fact that even [with] two people, the relationship that is a ‘perfect’ relationship today is not the same as what will be a ‘perfect’ relationship in three months. Let’s say, all of a sudden, I don’t know, I have a student drop of libido, for instance, and I feel like I don’t want to have sex anymore, but I don’t want you to not have your sexual needs met.
Maybe, in that case, I feel like you should get your sexual needs met in some way or something. A lot of things happen in life and it’s natural and much more interesting to free yourself from thinking that they are like two teams: monogamy non-monogamy [that] you have to pick from. Rather, to feel, to learn from everyone that you know [who are] in relationships. Pretty much everyone around you and just see what you think fits you best right now, with this person, in this environment.
And then the problem is that when you look at mainstream, major mainstream culture, you are more educated — if you can call that ‘educated’ — to be monogamous. You know what I’m saying? If you can call that ‘education,’ because when you look at films, it feels like, “Oh, we are magically monogamous.” You meet someone who is The One; you don’t have to say anything. You understand each other. This is magic!
BOT: [Laughs] Yep.
Sophie: [Laughs] Interestingly, people who are on the non-monogamous side of the spectrum, I think will have to do more work, which is something that is quite valuable to them. To me, even if you think you’re on the monogamous side of the spectrum, you have a lot to learn from someone who’s on the non-monogamous side of the spectrum,and so on.
BOT: Yeah, it’s almost — you’re right — in the media, monogamous people are considered the ‘ideal,’ and the non-monogamous folx are villainized.
Sophie: The sinners [laughs].
BOT: Yes, exactly [laughs]. Exactly. The ones that are going to hell and you don’t want to be them and...
Sophie: Yeah, exactly, but it’s like, when you look at the way we look at sex, there is a stigma around sex.
I contributed to an article, recently, on sexless marriage. Someone who’s in a sexless marriage, I think may feel shame because they feel like something’s not typical here. Something’s going wrong, maybe. Yet, there is this thing about sex; you shouldn’t talk about it, you shouldn’t show it, you shouldn’t da-da-da-da-da. Still, if you don’t have sex, it’s [considered] a problem as well.
Rather than see things as what is ‘okay’ and what is ‘not okay,’ let’s look at the wide array of possibilities and let people be informed. Then, you know, do what works for them. It’s much, much more interesting.
BOT: Yeah, because what works for one person won’t necessarily work for another person.
Sophie: Yeah, and may not work for them tomorrow.
BOT: Yeah, exactly.
Sophie: And that’s okay!
BOT: Exactly.
So, how would you suggest that a person starts that conversation with their partner if they’re interested in discovering polyamory?
Sophie: Something that I like to advise about this is — it depends on the other person. So, for instance, if they like books, maybe a book can be a conversation starter. You can do a film; you can watch a film together, something that shows a relationship that is an alternative style of relationship and you can discuss this, see how your other partner is feeling. You can discuss the concept with the concept of ‘The One,’ you can discuss concepts like the relationship escalator. I think there are many ways to bring in the conversation and see how your partner feels about it.
Also, I think it’s about sharing how you feel about it too, in a way that is honest. When I say ‘honest,’ I mean, if you feel uncomfortable about sharing about it, say it.
BOT: Yeah.
Sophie: If you feel scared and so on, it’s something you can share so that your partner can see how you feel about it and they won’t feel threatened, like you’re trying to push them into something. Make it clear. There is no ‘one solution fits all,’ so it’s all about where your needs and desires meet. What your boundaries [are], and so on. “What do we want to achieve here?”
BOT: ”What works right now?”
Sophie: Yeah, exactly. Step by step.
BOT: Step by step [laughs].
Sophie: [Laughs] And it’s okay to change your mind about anything. It’s okay, you can change your mind. One day, you can say, ”I like coffee,” and the following day you can say, “Well, I’m not into coffee anymore.” It’s the same thing.
BOT: That’s very well said, yeah. And how can you make sure that an open relationship is an ethical one, as opposed to cheating?
Sophie: Mmm, mhmm.
BOT: Where you’re both in on it, you’re both accepting of it. You’re both wanting to do it, as opposed to crossing that line into cheating.
Sophie: Yeah, so there, there is like the obvious: don’t hide things, don’t do things that are not consensual, and so on. There is also, to me, something that is harder to grasp, which is all about: how is your partner feeling about [it]?
BOT: Mhmm.
Sophie: It’s to make sure that the relationship is ethical, consensual, you need to check in on your partner. The communication channels [need] to be open, they need to feel like, “Okay, you can tell me anything. You can tell me that, actually, this doesn’t your good.”
I think that that’s the best way to do it. It seems to be lazy, to me, to just think like, “Okay, I’m not hiding anything, so it’s fine.” It’s more complicated than that.
BOT: Yeah. So that would be like your advice and tips that you would give to somebody who’s wanting to explore it, or who’s already been exploring it and they just want to ensure that the relationship is an ethical non-monogamous relationship?
Sophie: Yeah, to me, it’s like, if your partner is feeling well about it, then it’s good. If you’re not hiding anything, if things are consensual and your partner’s feeling good, then you’re okay. But because you can tick the box of, “Oh, I’m not hiding anything. It’s consensual. My partner is enthusiastic and consensual about things,” but still, you know, sometimes there can be things that are more complex to actually grasp because maybe your partner won’t see certain things. Unfortunately, I don’t think this is an ethical relationship, because someone’s suffering here.
BOT: Yeah, and do you find that there are complications that can arise as couples are exploring this world of ethical non-monogamy? And how can couples address those concerns that come up?
BOT: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. That’s why I am repeating so much how it’s important to know that you can change your mind. I think, sometimes, a problem that you encounter quite a lot is when someone agreed to try something, and then they’re in this situation where they actually aren’t so keen on it anymore, but because they said [they were before], so they keep going. You can build up a lot of tension around this.
BOT: Mhmm.
Sophie: Which is why it’s important to like, you know, regularly check-in.
BOT: Yeah.
So, at Between Our Thighs, our ultimate goal is sex-positivism, and, of course, that idea of sex-positivity is different for everyone.
Sophie: Yeah.
BOT: In your opinion, what do you think ‘sex positivity’ is?
Sophie: To me, sex-positivity is to keep the conversation open around sex.
BOT: Mhmm.
Sophie: But really in a way that’s taking into account the whole spectrum. Again, it’s also all about the spectrum. So it’s like, including asexuality, including everything. That is, to me, sex positivity.
[Laughs] One problem that I have sometimes, [are] people who think, when they see ‘sex positivity,’ that it’s a buzz word for like sex-focused. So, I like to say sex-positivity is not a sex-focused.
BOT: [Laughs] Yep! And how do you think that relates to gender sexuality, intersectionality, diversity, inclusivity — all of those things?
Sophie: It’s about dropping the stigma and going deeper into the way [that] all these intersect with one another. To me, dropping the stigma is really the important bit here.
BOT: Yeah.
Sophie: Because as I told you, the stigma is the worst thing ever. It’s just terrible because people like to explore on their own, they feel shame. Sometimes people take risks and people [can] take advantage of them, and this is really terrible to me.
BOT: So, what would your advice be to somebody who’s looking to become more sex-positive and drop the stigma that they might feel against other people or against themselves?
Sophie: I would tell them to look at the way they use social media and, depending on what platform they are [on], to go and follow creators that share content that is sex-positive. Along the way, find people who are in this same approach around life and get talking. I think this the best thing.
BOT: For sure. Do you have any concluding thoughts?
Sophie: There is no ‘normal’ [laughs].
BOT: [Laughs] Very well said. It’s true, there really isn’t.
Sophie: It’s my motto at the moment. I keep saying it at the moment; that’s why it’s the first thing that came to my mind [laughs].
BOT: [Laughs] And that can change, too!
Sophie: Exactly [laughs]! So, my social network is called LVRSNFRNDS — It’s L-V-R-S-N-F-R-N-D-S. It’s cryptic, I’m sorry [laughs].
BOT: [Laughs] I’ll link that in the description below!
Sophie: Thank you [laughs]! You can find us on LVRSNFRNDS.com. We’re also quite active on Instagram, @LVRSNFRNDS. You can join us as a visitor on a free plan or you can become a member for $10 a month. We have quite a big community, mostly in London and it’s growing in the US, at the moment.
On our platform, people make friends and talk about everything identity and relationships. We have a lot of live conversations happening, where members just jump on Zoom and discuss topics like dating, building an ethical non-monogamous relationship, and so on. It really, really varies and [is] powered by the members who are a great bunch of people.
It’s a safe and non-normative space. So, what we do is give a space for people to find what works for them and to keep it safe. We have a selection process, so when you apply on the website, you have to fill out a form where we check that you share our values and then you get an invitation to join.
BOT: That’s so exciting.
Sophie: Thanks!
BOT: I’ll link everything below and hopefully, we’ll have some new community members interacting with the old ones and ahh! It’ll be exciting.
Sophie: Awesome, I would like to thank you so much.
BOT: No problem. Thank you so much for joining us today Sophie, and for sharing your insight and all of this great information.
Sophie: Thank you so much.
